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So, there's this woman who is sort of on the periphery of my scene; she's married to a friend of a friend, basically. I see her a couple times a month. She is well-educated and a good storyteller, and at first I thought she was kind of fun, although she's a terrible egotist. If she's not the center of a conversation she drifts away, and she likes to drown people out. Not fatal flaws though.

The other day I was in a conversation with her and others, and the topic turned to the Korean crisis. I mentioned that I felt very bad for the North Korean people because of the starvation in their country and the government they've got: totalitarian and insane is a rotten mix. But particularly the starvation: the numbers aren't hard, but it seems that hundreds of thousands if not millions of people are at risk of death at any time.

She responded in a very dismissive way that they deserved their fate. "Any people who can't overthrow their government under those conditions deserve their fate" was her line. She repeated this twice, a bit more loudly each time.

I was shocked. I asked her if she really had though this through. Let's say five hundred thousand people die of starvation. Did anyone really deserve that fate? How easy is it to rebel in a totalitarian state? Had she been there?

She responded again, in a very dogmatic way, that peoples who cannot overthrow a bad government are responsible and deserving of whatever troubles they get, up to and including death. I said that was beyond my ethical reach; I couldn't ever say that any huge group of people like that deserved collective punishment by a painful death. I was really upset by this time.

Her reply was "Well, I'm a historian. History tells us that people choose their government and their fate." Literally with a dismissive wave, as if historians were anointed by God to dispense moral judgment on populations. I said "Well, I'm an educated person too, and I've read lots of books, but I have ethical limits."

Two weeks later I'm still angry about this. Really angry. I saw her tonight and she was going on and on about how Europeans are irrelevant or something else equally offensive and inane.

I wanted to say to her, and maybe I'll have the cojones to say it next time: "Hey you know what? You're rich, privileged, arrogant, and morally vacant. History tells us that you're the last decayed remnant of a dying empire and that your high-handed racist hand-waving at the miseries of millions will be an example of evil to the schoolchildren of tomorrow. Enjoy the legacy, you stuck-up little bitch."

Bonus points: she's a high school teacher.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-02-01 02:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] flipzagging.livejournal.com
Why are high school teachers automatically respected? Assuming they didn't fail at something else first, there's really only two reasons to take that job.
  1. you love working with kids of that age.
  2. you enjoy lording your intellectual superiority over 8th-graders.
My high school was pretty good, but there were still plenty of type 2.

....

Not sure if this will work, but you might try this next time she pulls out her "historian" card.

I once saw Mordecai Richler deal a death-blow to a similar dimwit on a Canadian chat show. This stuffed shirt edited a conservative think tank newsletter, and had very similar physiognomy to George W. Bush. He was blabbing about how fascists don't have the monopoly on hate, that Karl Marx was a man who was filled with hatred.

Somebody asked the W-clone to justify this, and he replied, with finger upraised, "Read a history book!"

Without skipping a beat, Richler quipped, "Name two."

Silence from that guy, for the rest of the show.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-02-01 02:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] i-get-stabby.livejournal.com
"Well, I'm a historian. History tells us that people choose their government and their fate."
Translation:
Well, I'm an idiot. I take what I want to hear/understand from what I've learned and choose what conclusions fit with my own biased stereotypes.

Lots of people spout this kind of bullshit. I figure it has some superficial ability to calm the little voice inside their head that objects to the injustices of the world but feel completely overwhelmed.
Of course, how it could be accepted for more than a millisecond by anyone with even the most subpar but technically functioning brain is beyond me.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-02-01 04:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] turnip.livejournal.com
Well, I'm a historian. History tells us that people choose their government and their fate.

historians don't say that; Americans do. She has the luxury of having that perspective. and it sounds like she's taken it for granted.

yeah, it's GREAT that she's a high school teacher. I can imagine the kind of stuff she's ingraining in her students.

It's an oversimplification

Date: 2003-02-01 06:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rpkrajewski.livejournal.com
Your so-called friend is way off base, and even if she's "right," in some sense, that doesn't excuse an inhumane posture.

However:

If you beleived the converse, how would that guide your actions ? I mean, if people can't influence the fate of their countries, why not just fuck off and do whatever one wants, right ?

In fact, I believe this how a lot of quasi-lefties conduct themselves. They want to beleive all that stuff about the hopelessly entrenched ruling class superstructure so they can fritter their time away on Tibetan restaurants and IFC on cable.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-02-01 07:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marm0t.livejournal.com
I really like your proposed response. You might want to eliminate the "stuck-up little bitch" parting shot, only because that'll be ringing in her ears at the end and will prevent her from having to actually think about the rest of your indictment.

I hope you find the cojones. She needs to hear it.

Also

Date: 2003-02-01 09:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nosrialleon.livejournal.com
I know not of whom you speazk, but chances are:
She has a degree in history. This is different from being a historian.
I certainly don't call myself a sociologist, nor would I be inclined to if I had gone into teaching.
History, like sociology or psychology, is one of the 'easy' degrees to get from a four-year. You are expected to learn the stuff, spout it back, and only think about it if you plan on getting a higher degree in it. In the meantime, you drink a lot and try to find a future spouse.
I have 2 friends with history degrees. One of them is not a particulary enlightened person; the other is a way out new-age guy who exibits just enough sanity to function in the world, barely.
I don't place much truck in the idea that "higher education = higher learning"

(no subject)

Date: 2003-02-01 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eyeteeth.livejournal.com
I agree with marm0t: tear her a new one, but skip calling her a bitch. Fighting her nationalist rhetoric with a sexist slur can only weaken your argument. Plus it's, you know, a sexist slur.

Other than that I wouldn't change a thing.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-02-03 12:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] frobisher.livejournal.com
Well, I'm a PHILOSOPHER. I outrank her.

She's a fuckhead.

Since, sadly, it would be wrong to KILL HER PAINFULLY, merely for that, I'd ignore her if you can. Eventually, I'm sure someone will set her on fire for you.

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